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Microwave (MOT) to Spot Welder Conversion - Electrical Question
January 1, 2012
3:25 PM
Tyler
Seattle, WA
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This question is for all you electrical guys. I'm working on my MOT to Spot Welder conversion and I am trying to calculate the amps (current) that my spot welder will put out. My cheap multimeter won't measure amps, and maybe that's a good thing, because if my math is right, there are a lot of amps coming out of this thing. 

So here's my question. If the transformer was rated at 700 watts and had 120v going to the primary coil, the resulting output of the secondary coil would be ______ amps at 1volt?

700, right?

If amps = watts/volts than 700/1 = 700amps. 

I'm asking because I'm trying to figure out how many wraps of 4AWG wire I should wrap around the secondary. 5 wraps is giving me about 5 volts, which is too many volts (and thus less amps: 700/5 = 140amps). I'm going to re-wire the secondary with 1 to 2 wraps to see if I can get it down to 1v. Note: If I have room to do a second identical wrap I will. The output voltage would be the same, but if I tie the two wraps together the resulting wire would be able to handle twice the current, right? Or am I missing something? 

All the other MOT to Spot Welder conversions I have seen shoot for an output of about 2-3v on their secondary. But why not 1 volt? Why not get the most amps possible (assuming your wire can handle the current). Are they worried about too much current blowing the weld?

Also, I realize 4AWG isn't rated for 700amps, and thus 700amps will heat up 4awg wire. However, I'm hoping not significantly if used for a short duration (3-5 seconds) like a spot weld. 

NOTE: I work full time and I'm attending college full time as well. So if it takes me a few days to respond, please don't take it personally. If it's urgent please send me a Private Message.
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January 1, 2012
6:01 PM
Alexander m
Montreal
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What you are not factoring in is resistance, and that is what kills amps. For argument sake lets say that the secondary circuit including the coil, copper arms, replaceable tips and the two pieces of steel have a resistance of 1/50Ω. If your are using 1V then you will only have 50A of current while 3V will give you 150A of current. Another thing that has been over looked is that the transformer doesn't always draw 700W, the watt value is determined by the load on the secondary circuit. In this case the scenario I mentioned above would be close to ideal, because the transformer doesn't work at 100% efficiency meaning that with 450W on the low voltage side there will be 500W to 600W on the 120V side. The missing energy goes into heating the transformer. You mentioned that you don't have an amp meter but you can make a primitive amp meter by using an extensions cord and a volt meter. What I have in mind involves plugging in a lamp with a 100W bulb to the extensions cord, then with the plugs out an eighth inch I measured the AC voltage across the length of the cored. With the two leads on the same wire you will get a small voltage reading. In my case I have a 118V outlet with a 100W bulb and .045V over the cord, then with the use of Ohm's law the resistance of cord can be determined.
 

100W/118V = .85A    

.045V/.85A = .053Ω 

Since the resistance is constant you can use it to determine amps of other appliances. Simply take the voltage across the cored then divide by the resistance in the cored. This method is far from perfect, because a bulb is not an ideal standard so expect a 10% deviation.  

The best laid schemes on mill and lathe, Go often askew, -Bobby Burns, If he was a machinist.  
January 1, 2012
9:34 PM
sammy
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Tyler, my low scale on my ac amp meter is 10 amps and the high scale is 800 if you would like to borrow it. Sorry about not getting back to you sooner, life gets in the way sometimes.Frown

Sammy

January 2, 2012
12:15 AM
ironring1
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For short welds, 4AWG will be fine.  However, if you want, you can use aluminium (or if you can get it, copper) bar stock to make your secondary windings (make them in pieces that bolt together).  You only need flexibility for the connection between one side of the secondary winding and the movable welder jaw.  Design for the highest current that you plan to use, but keep in mind what the current will be on the primary side so that you don't go blowing breakers every time you weld (secondary current / turns ratio = primary current).  Current limiting is going to be done on your primary side by limiting the input voltage (a rheostat will do the job nicely).  Likewise, measure your output current on the PRIMARY side, and simply multiply it by the turns ratio.  That way, the actual current that you will be measuring will be a safer level.

 

-Chris

January 4, 2012
11:20 AM
Tyler
Seattle, WA
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Thanks for the feedback guys. 

@Alex, You said "If your are using 1V then you will only have 50A of current while 3V will give you 150A of current."

Did you mean to say it the other way around or am I mistaken? I was thinking that lower voltage output on the secondary winding would give you higher amperage. Do I have this backwards? For simplicity's sake I'll use round numbers for volts and amps to explain. If 1v gives me 600amps, 3 volts would give me 200amps … right? And since you'd want the highest amperage possible to heat the weld spot quickly, you'd want the lowest possible voltage, right?

Also, I like the idea of your amp meter. That's clever and I'll give it a try.

@Sammy, lets get together. I'm free all week. Do you still have the same cell? If not, send me your new number in a PM. I called you last week but the voicemail message was generic so I'm not sure if it was still your phone number.  

@ironring1, about using bar stock for the secondary winding – someone else did this and it seemed to work well for them. I might try the same thing if I can't fit a second identical winding on the secondary. As for tripping the breaker, I've been worried about that. Only because I live in a rental and I don't have access to the breaker. I'd have to call my landlord if I trip it! What a pain. 

As for doing math according to the turns ratio, that's a problem because I have no idea how many turns are on the primary. But I suppose I could calculate it since I know how many turns I have on my secondary … I'll have to do a little more research into transformer math. 

NOTE: I work full time and I'm attending college full time as well. So if it takes me a few days to respond, please don't take it personally. If it's urgent please send me a Private Message.
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January 4, 2012
3:41 PM
Alexander m
Montreal
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I see where you are coming from and your train of thought, but the more you reduce the volts the more resistance works against you. Your example of 600A at 1V is impossible to achieve, that would require you to have 1/600 of an ohm in the low voltage circuit. Consider my example with the extension cored where I got 1/20 of an ohm, a far cry from 1/600 of an ohm. Your circuit will have thicker copper wires and possibly a shorter distance, so 1/50 of an ohm is a fair estimate. with the resistance constant we can calculate the amperage with ohms law then the watts.

 5V:   5V / 1/50Ω = 250A  5V x 250A = 1250W

 4V:   4V / 1/50Ω = 200A  4V x 200A = 800W

 3V:   3V / 1/50Ω = 150A  3V x 150A = 450W

 2V:   2V / 1/50Ω = 100A  2V x 100A = 200W 

 1V:   1V / 1/50Ω = 50A    1V x 50A   = 50W

.5V:   .5V/ 1/50Ω = 25A   .5V x 25A   = 12.5W

If there was no resistance then your reasoning is absolutely correct, but its resistance that eats away all your amps and the only way over come this is with increased volts. As said before that 1/50 of an ohm is just an estimate, so you will need to make it and then experiment to find the resistance. To settle this once and for all make the machine with one volt, see how well it makes the spot weld and use the extension cord amp meter to measure the load, then rebuild it with three volts and test again. The guidelines that make a good spot welder are low resistance in the clamp arms, and make it with as high a voltage as possible without exceeding your ingoing Watt limit. Say you were to make a spot welder with 120 volts with the arms straight out of the wall.

120V:   120V / 1/50Ω = 6,000A  120V x 6,000A = 720,000W

In this case you will certainly blow a fuse, but if you had access to that much power then you could weld cars together.           

The best laid schemes on mill and lathe, Go often askew, -Bobby Burns, If he was a machinist.  
January 4, 2012
8:48 PM
Tyler
Seattle, WA
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January 9, 2009
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Thanks Alex, I see your point now. 

So I played with the windings a bit today and found that:

2 Turns = 1.3v = 0.10 spot weld diameter
3 Turns = 2.6v = 0.25 spot weld diameter
4 Turns = 3.8v = 0.11 spot weld diameter

So basically 3 turns (2.6v) seems to be the sweet spot. 

However, none of the welds were all that strong. I'm almost positive it's a problem with poor conductivity at the connection points. And maybe an issue with lack of pressure between the electrodes also, but even when I used a bar clamp (with non-conductive rubber pads) to add pressure to the electrodes the weld was still poor. So I think it's an issue with conductivity more than anything. 

Here's my current setup:

Grounding bar clamp with bold drilled and tapped to fit MIG electrode (I did this hoping that I'd have an off-the-shelf replacement option for my electrodes). 

It made pretty good electrodes that were easy to align and adjust. 

However, it just doesn't make enough contact between the clamp and the bar – it's only making tangential contact at 3 points. 

So I'll have to re-work the setup again to get better conductivity and see if the weld strength improves. If not, I may have to add a second MOT in series (parallel?) with the first. 

My original setup (which was just a quick mockup to test if it was going to work) was just a couple of bolts connected directly to the 4AWG wires. The weld was weak, but better than the results I'm getting with the grounding rod clamps. 

I'll give things some more thought and make some better connecting hardware. I'm thinking of holes drilled to the same diameter as the rods (.500) and the wire (.225) with slits cut in them so that I can camp everything together. 

 

NOTE: I work full time and I'm attending college full time as well. So if it takes me a few days to respond, please don't take it personally. If it's urgent please send me a Private Message.
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January 4, 2012
9:19 PM
Alexander m
Montreal
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The poor contact would most likely be the culprit, perhaps it would be best to machine two solid block of copper that would be crimped around the rods. Also could take photos of the complete assembly so that we can get some ideas for troubleshooting?     

The best laid schemes on mill and lathe, Go often askew, -Bobby Burns, If he was a machinist.  
January 5, 2012
1:16 AM
Mtw fdu
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Tyler

 

The pic you showed with the 3 points of contact, I would drill through that and put the bolt in that hole.  Fasten it with a couple of nuts and I reckon that will give you a bit more weld penetration.   I think the other clamp setup is where you are losing your weld.  With all the connections/rods/etc being copper, that may work better.  Hope this helps.

 

Mtw fdu.

 

 

January 5, 2012
12:03 PM
ironring1
Vancouver, BC
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Tyler, when I was talking about the turns ratio in your transformer, I didn't mean for you to actually count primary windings, I'm far too lazy to do that! ;-) .  Rather, connect the primary to 120V and measure the open circuit voltage at the secondary.  The ratio of these two voltages IS your turns ratio.  Since you know the secondary, you can calculate (estimate) the actual number of turns in the primary.  You     don't need to be exact with the primary, since it has a lot of turns (plus or minus 5-10 turns is fine).  By the same token, since the number of windings in your secondary is small, adding or subtracting a winding or two, even though it's just one winding, is a HUGE change in the spot welder tuning.  At any rate, once you have an idea of the turns ratio of your transformer, put an ammeter in series with the primary (dear god, DON'T put an ammeter on the secondary!!!).  Measure the current during your test welds and use your measured turns ratio to compute the weld current.  Now, you can start to fine tune your machine by measuring weld current as a function of clamping pressure, welded material thickness, how clean the weld is, etc.

 

PS, putting transformers in series will not help you here.  At the end of the day, you are producing an AC voltage between a pair of electrodes.  The current that will flow is determined by Ohm's law, just like it is for all basic electricity.  All the transformer is doing is increasing the potential current that is available for the weld.  Just because you hook a 1:100 transformer up to a 15A circuit doesn't mean that you'll get 1500A in your weld.  Don't work forward from the wall plug, work backwards from the metal to be welded.  That circuit has a resistance, and the weld will require a given current to make a successful weld.  The product of the resistance and the minimum necessary current is the minimum voltage that you must put across the weld.  Ignoring losses in the electrodes, this is the same as necessary secondary voltage from transformer.  Since your primary will be energized at 120V, you know what turns ratio you require.  Final step, verify that the current available at the secondary will not blow the breaker on the primary side.  e.g., if you find that you need 20V across your metal to get sufficient current , then your turns ratio will be 20/120 = 1/6.  Assuming that you have a 15A circuit, you would have only 15*6 = 90A available for the weld before you blew a fuse.  If this is too low, then you have two (only one is simple) options.  Option 1: get a more powerful primary power source.  This could be the 240V circuit in your house, or a 20A 120V source.  Option 2: build a more sophisticated circuit that will store energy in a capacitor bank and use this to kickstart your welds (once the weld heats up, it's resistance increases, so your welder will draw the most current at the very beginning of the weld).

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