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Microwave (MOT) to Spot Welder Conversion - Electrical Question
January 7, 2012
9:41 PM
sammy
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Tyler, I did some calculations and that 800 amp reading had to be a fluke of some sort. That would have required almost 25 amps input and we only had a 15 amp breaker. The 400 amp reading is more probable as that would have required about 12 amps of input. I still don't know why that wouldn't have bonded those scraps we used.

Sammy

January 7, 2012
10:15 PM
ironring1
Vancouver, BC
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How much pressure are you applying at the electrodes?  Miller's online data on RSW (resistance spot welding) talks about electrodes clamping with a kN or two (1 kN is about 225 lbs).  Without the high clamping force, you won't fuse the heated metal.  Also, that 400A measurement is somewhat suspect.  I've run a bunch of numbers to compute the current my setup with a 3-turn secondary (35:1 turns ratio), and I can't my primary current above a couple of amps, and that's assuming that I have a heavy-duty winding made from bar-stock and the arms of the welder are 25mm x 37mm aluminium bar stock (50cm long), and further assuming that the metal I'm welding has no resistance!  Like I suggested in an earlier post, measure the current on the primary side and use the turns ratio to calculate the current at the secondary side.  I'm setting up a spreadsheet to figure out the best turns ratio to maximise welding current, and I'll post it when it's done.

January 8, 2012
12:01 AM
Tyler
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As you might have figured out, Sammy and I got together today to experiment with the spot welder. 

@Ironring, Well, we definately didn't have 225 lbs of clamping force, so that explains a lot! A couple of rubber bands and on a couple of welds a solid grip (Sammy, how strong is your grip?). Maybe 15-20 pounds depending on how hard Sammy was gripping?

We did find a few things out tho, like the turns ratio.

Input 120.6v @ primary = 3.6v @ secondary (33:1 ratio) with no load (nothing between the electrodes and the electrodes not touching). 

With a direct electrode-to-electrode connection (no metal between the electrodes) we got a suspicious 800+ amps on the ammeter. 

By the way, why aren't these called amPmeters?

Anyway, with metal between the electrodes we got about a 400 amp reading. 

We also discovered that we had a voltage of 1.35v when welding (under load) at the secondary output, but only 0.7v at the electrodes. We lost .35v at the grounding rod clamp, and then another .3v at the electrodes. So by the time the voltage made it to the electrodes, we were down to a scarce 0.7v under load, 3.6v with no load. So that's loosing a lot of voltage to resistance. 

The excellent news is Sammy happened to have a complete spot welder shell (minus the transformer – which had blown). So I will be able to have an actual spot welder (instead of a hacked together one) once I get things working. Thanks Sammy!

So Ironring, unless you or Alex or anyone else can think of anything else we might try, I think lack of clamping force is our biggest issue, as well as loss of voltage across connections. The second will be easy to fix, and hopefully with a functional spot welder housing, so will the first.  

NOTE: I work full time and I'm attending college full time as well. So if it takes me a few days to respond, please don't take it personally. If it's urgent please send me a Private Message.
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January 8, 2012
1:00 PM
ironring1
Vancouver, BC
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I suspect that one of the things that we haven't been considering is happening when you weld, Tyler.  I hadn't even considered it until you told us your results (particularly the dropping of output voltage at the secondary when welding).  I think that the transformer core is saturating.  We all know how a wire has a current rating, and if you try to jam too much current through it, it will start to heat up, and this in turn will limit the current as the resistance of the wire increases with temperature.  Well, permeable materials (i.e., those that conduct magnetic flux, like our transformer cores) also have capacities, and just like electrical wire, these are set by the material and how much of it is present.  It's possible (likely?) that the transformer core is saturating and you're losing a lot of your input power through the core's reluctance (the magnetic equivalent of electrical resistance).  It's the one resistor in the system that we can't change :(

 

However, there is a solution.  Get a second core and wire the two in parallel on the primary side and in series on the secondary side (mind the phase).  This will half the net reluctance, quartering the losses (they follow a square law just like electrical losses).  I'll post my results with my transformer.  If they agree, I'd start looking at reluctance losses.

 

-Chris

January 9, 2012
10:36 PM
ironring1
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Hey, Tyler.  Further on the topic of transformer core ratings, I found this: http://au.answers.yahoo.com/qu…..157AAjsq4T .  The first answer cites the handbook of transformer design, and gives the following formula for the VA-rating of a transformer core: 

VA rating = (A*F/6.9)^2. 

"A" is the cross sectional area of the part of the core that the turns are wound on (the height of the stack of laminates times 1/3 the core width measured across the face with the openings) in square inches & "F" is the frequency in Hertz.  For my transformer, I get 540 VA (a VA is like a watt, but doesn't assume that the voltage is in phase with current).  The microwave that it came from was a 700W model, though (skimping in manufacturing to cut costs?).  At any rate, trying to get more than a kVA out of it seems doubtful for mine.  Nonetheless, there are videos out there of people's working MOT spotwelders, so it is doable.  I'll take a lot of measurements as I put mine together and post the data.

 

-Chris

January 10, 2012
12:47 AM
Mtw fdu
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I have decided to buy a spot welder rather than make 1.  They are not very expensive at all.  Here down under they sell for only about $1100.  Not a bad price.  I will however have quite a bit of use for it, especially doing panel work.  I am only probably going to get it about June/July.

 

Mtw fdu.

 

 

 

 

 

 

January 10, 2012
5:42 PM
Tyler
Seattle, WA
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Thanks for the info ironring, I'll have to sit down and do some figuring. The project is on hold for now because I've started teaching my night class in PHP programming and that's taking up all my time with class prep. But eventually I'll get into the swing of things and have free time again.

@mtw fdu, did you mean a hundred dollars, not a thousand? Or is this non-US currency? If you're paying a grand for a spot welder I think you may want to reconsider. 

NOTE: I work full time and I'm attending college full time as well. So if it takes me a few days to respond, please don't take it personally. If it's urgent please send me a Private Message.
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January 10, 2012
8:29 PM
Mtw fdu
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Yes Tyler it was $1100 for the spot welder.  I tried to post a pic but it didn't work.  If you go to http://www.hareandforbes.com.au   follow the link on the "Metalworking" section then click the "Welding" section then click the "Spot Welders" section.  All the info is there.

 

They are rated at 40kg to 120kg clamping force good enough for panel work.

 

Mtw fdu.

 

 

January 12, 2012
1:31 AM
Tyler
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Ah, I see. I didn't realize you needed such a heavy duty model. I don't think any MOT conversion would ever stack up to one of those. Let us know which one you get and what you think of it.

NOTE: I work full time and I'm attending college full time as well. So if it takes me a few days to respond, please don't take it personally. If it's urgent please send me a Private Message.
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January 12, 2012
3:29 AM
Mtw fdu
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Will do!!!

 

Mtw fdu.

 

 

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