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Podcast Episode 003: Which is Better? HSS, Brazed Carbide, or Inserts?
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May 21, 2011
1:05 PM
Tyler
Seattle, WA
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(Note: To listen to the actual podcast you need to Read the original blog post)

In this podcast we attempt to answer the age old question: Which is better for the home shop? High Speed Steel, Brazed Carbide or Inserts?

Show Notes:

  • Lathe Tools:
    • For roughing, carbide is pretty tough to beat.
    • But for the home machinist, HSS, Brazed Carbide, and Carbide Inserts are the most common.
    • HSS can be sharpened to a sharp edge, carbide cannot – it's too brittle.
    • For roughing carbide is great because although it's brittle, it's tough and can take deep cuts at a higher feed rate than HSS.
    • HSS can take very fine cuts because it can be sharpened to a razor sharp edge, whereas with carbide you need to take at least .005".
    • Tyler feels HSS is the best for the home enthusiast, while Barry likes brazed carbide or inserts.
    • Grinding carbide requires silicone carbide wheels, not aluminum oxide.
    • Barry recommends buying an AR brazed carbide tool for roughing, and then using HSS for finish cuts.
  • HSS grades:
    • 5% Cobalt, 8% Cobalt? Is it worth the money for the home shop?
    • Barry says no, go ahead and buy the cheap stuff (M2).
    • Cobalt helps with wear resistance and tool life, so it's mostly important in production machining.
  • Indexable inserts:
    • Barry recommends against the inexpensive triangular (TNMG) insert sets. Instead buy a proper insert (WNMG) from a reputable brand like Kenemetal, Seco, Hertle, etc from Ebay. Why Ebay? Because they're likely being surplussed and can be bought at a huge discount.
  • Coatings: Are they worth it?
    • Uncoated HSS
    • TiN - Titanium Nitride Coating (gold appearance)
    • TiAlN – Titanium Aluminum Nitride Coating. (brown / black chrome appearance)
    • Coatings don't matter much to the amateur, but they can make a difference in industry where harder materials are often machined or there is a high part volume.
  • Drills:
    • Don't buy carbon steel
    • Coatings are nice, but not essential.
    • Can you sharpen coated drills? Yes!
    • Buy a set of cobalt drills if you can afford them.
  • End Mills:
    • Uncoated HSS
    • Coated HSS (TiN)
    • Solid Carbide – The best. Solid carbide will cut better and last longer, but cost 3x – 4x the money.
  • Then Barry and Tyler spend a few minutes talking about the machinist program at Bates Technical College in Tacoma WA.

If you would like to record a question for a future podcast please call (209) 379-5309.

Intro and Outro Music by Jeremy Messersmith.

 

NOTE: I work full time and I'm attending college full time as well. So if it takes me a few days to respond, please don't take it personally. If it's urgent please send me a Private Message.
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May 21, 2011
2:40 PM
Jerry
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An excellent podcast Tyler, everything Barry said about the tool choice and their application was spot on.

May 21, 2011
5:09 PM
Alexander m
Montreal
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There is another form of carbide cutters that wasn't mentioned that I know Tyler is going to love, it is carbide tool blanks. All you need is a green wheel on the bench grinder then they can be ground just like HSS tool blanks, these can be found atmsdiscount.com in 12'' length that can cut with a diamond dremel wheel.

The best laid schemes on mill and lathe, Go often askew, -Bobby Burns, If he was a machinist.  
May 21, 2011
6:50 PM
Jr.
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i personaly like using a mix of both, high speed to get the part to just over the right size and then carbide to finish. saves alot on my carbides

"Once you get a reputation for being scatterbrained, people always think you never have a serious thought in your head, but that insn't always true. I ought to know." Tex – S.E. Hinton
May 21, 2011
9:52 PM
Tyler
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Thanks Jerry, I'm glad you had a listen and liked it!

@ Alex, thanks for the link! 1/4"x1/4"x12" is $50! But now you've got me thinking … It would be interesting to get a chunk of carbide to replace my HSS blank in my diamond tool holder to compare lifespan and surface finish. And really $50 isn't all that bad since it would get cut down into 4 3" long pieces. So really it would come out to $12.50 each, which is about 3x what I pay for HSS blanks. 

@Jr, did you mean that you like to rough out with carbide and then switch to HSS? I used to do that at Bates when I had a bigger lathe to work with (and therefor could take huge hogging passes) but now I just take a few extra passes with HSS. But as I said in the podcast, if I had better carbide for home use I might be inclined to use them.

NOTE: I work full time and I'm attending college full time as well. So if it takes me a few days to respond, please don't take it personally. If it's urgent please send me a Private Message.
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May 21, 2011
9:58 PM
origin7511
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Great podcast Tyler!  Very useful information.

 

I've actually had reasonably good luck with those crap TCMT holders in certain roles.  I use my 1/2" CCMT holder and small nose radius insert to get most of the metal off.  HSS cutting steel is like watching paint dry to me when trying to get a lot of metal off.  The 1/2" CCMT removes a lot of metal fast (for a small lathe).  0.060" cuts are not hard to take with aggressive feed.  Then I switch to the TCMT holder and a nice ground AL finishing insert (TCGT).  They are sharp enough to draw blood when you bump them and they can take 0.005" cuts in steel no problem.  They can also take smaller cuts within reason.  Using those I can knock out the last 0.015" with an acceptable finish and not flex the snot out of the part with the heavy cuts needed for the molded inserts.

 

I still need practice grinding HSS but I tend to grab my insert tools most often because I usually just want to get a thing made not head up to the grinder, experiment, back to the grinder.  I keep working at it on my down-time though. I know that HSS can provide a better finish on steel.  On aluminum, though my ground inserts do a flat perfect job, no need for me to mess with anything else. 

 

Here's an example of the results of that TCGT insert:

TCGT Cut in Drill Rod

May 22, 2011
2:54 AM
Jerry
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We need to get to the root of this idea that TC cuts can be heavier than HSS. Now of course that is quite true on pro machines, but the advantage on hobby machines is more about wear than cutting ability.

 

I've a mind to show what I mean, I'll sanitise my thoughts and see if a demo video of a home ground HSS tool can show this. I don't use TC Insert tools as I've no need, indeed I only own one, a boring tool that's frankly rubbish, I had to grind the tip to make it work properly would you believe Confused.

May 22, 2011
8:22 AM
origin7511
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I should have put that differently.  I know that a well done HSS tool can peel off a ton of metal in a single pass.  The ones I make can't and since I work a lot on larger diameters the low RPM makes even a heavy cut a slow affair to watch take place.  With inserted tools I'm generally working at 750RPM and up even on a 2" part.  That means the rate of advance is a lot faster even at the same inch-per-rev.   The advantages disappear quickly as you get under 1" though

 

I have seen HSS taking some massive cuts that look like shiny potato peelings rolling off.  My ground tools will not take that for whatever reason and coupled with the slow advance on power-feed means I usually end up just reaching for the insert tool and going on.

 

Believe me, I'm not claiming that carbide is objectively 'better' for the home shop.  Just that I have been able to find a few combinations  that work well for me.  To get there I did spend a lot of time scratching my head wondering why my part looks like rats gnawed it out.

May 22, 2011
9:22 AM
Jerry
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I hear you, and you're not alone, my thoughts are to find out why. Take a look at the vid I've posted on another thread, speeds there up to 1250 RPM.

May 22, 2011
5:15 PM
origin7511
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Thanks for the inspiration.  I was went out and tried again with a 3/8" tool bit.  This time I ommited back-rake which is always where it goes bad for me.  It's an awkward way to hold it with little support and just ground the three clearance angles.  I was able to come in and take .125" DOC but there was chatter getting started there.  0-.090 were nice and clean and I was still able to get a sweet finish dialing in 0.0005" at the end.  Cool.  One more tool in the arsenal and the chips aren't as painful!  :)

 

Thanks for making the video!

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