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Setting cutter bits
July 28, 2011
3:10 PM
Tenn
Linden, TN USA
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In looking over some info the other day I was reminded to set my boring bar 0.010" high for inside work and the OD cutter dead center. WE all know this I knowConfused. But I had forgot about setting the boring bar high and was wondering how to set something 0.010" high when I am getting to that stage in life when my vision is a little blurry sometimesFrown. I am privileged to happen to own a granite surface plate and a height gauge so I found an easy way to set my tool bit off the tailstock centerpoint but I'd like to know how others do it when you don't have all the goodies ??

 

  

 

 

 

This is probably the easy way if you have a height gauge ? But how about those folks that don't have one yet or may never have one ? How do you go about getting 0.010" high off the center point ?? I'd like to hear and see some pics of how others do it ? Smile  My apology for the blurry pics Embarassed so far its the best I know how.

~Chris

         The man who will not share his wisdom, however foolish it may seem, For the betterment of his peers and the improvement of his trade, Is not worth his weight in swarf !   Learn from others mistakes, you probably won't live long enough to make them all yourself. But I do think I'm making progress on a lot of them!   ~Chris    
July 28, 2011
3:41 PM
Jerry
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By feel and results.

Setting a boring tool to such fine settings has limited value imho. As the idea is to compensate for bar deflection under load there are such huge variations in the degree of that load that the conditions will rarely be the same. Different materials, tool overhang, tool sharpness, tool rake and clearance angles, tool material, tool size and depth of cut will give different forces, so what's right for one particular cut could be useless for another. 

At the end of the day there is no substitute for developing a feel for it by just doing it.

 

July 28, 2011
3:56 PM
Tenn
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Jerry I agree with that, yet at the same point a beginner has to start somewhere. When you started "how did you do it?"Confused Can you "describe" what the "right feel" feels like for the sake of beginners ? I'm not trying to be hard to get along with, rather trying to give some sort of tangible advise to someone learning. When I started welding my Dad held my hand in his and "taught me the right feel" for striking an arc and holding a bead etc…. What I would like to see in this discussion (and maybe that's asking too much ?) is a way to describe to those learning "the feel", what to look for (or should I say what to feel for?). Smile Older workers and especially skilled ones have much to teach others but sometimes it's hard to put into words what one learns by experience. Wink

         The man who will not share his wisdom, however foolish it may seem, For the betterment of his peers and the improvement of his trade, Is not worth his weight in swarf !   Learn from others mistakes, you probably won't live long enough to make them all yourself. But I do think I'm making progress on a lot of them!   ~Chris    
July 28, 2011
10:06 PM
Alexander m
Montreal
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Chris, it's a bit eerie that you have the same lathe and hight gauge as I do, with the exception of the background it is as if you broke into my home just to take a photo. With that aside, I have seen this exact method used in the dawson machine shop, after seeing this I thought that this can be improved, so I figured that cutting a rod on the lathe and doing some measuring, the degree of accuracy could be improved. The difficulty with using a center is that the tip is not always sharpened to a point and it's difficult to judge hight by eye. I eliminated this by turning a rod down to 0.300" then by using the hight gage I measured from the cross slide to the top of the rod and subtracted the radius, leaving the accurate distance of 4.400". From that point I could use the hight gauge for setting the hight of tools but to quicken the proses I made a small block that sits atop the 1-2-3 blocks that has the pre-set measurement of 0.400". The total hight of the block is 0.800" so that it can be flipped and allow for setting the occasional upside down tool. You asked how this could be done without a hight gauge, well with some shims and a lot of time this can be done with equal or greater accuracy. Simply add shims until the top shim just grazes the top then subtract the radios from the shims and you can proceed to making that block in the penultimate image. Finally if you want to raise the tool exactly 0.010" then you need only add a shim under that block.                             

Hope I answered your question  

 

The best laid schemes on mill and lathe, Go often askew, -Bobby Burns, If he was a machinist.  
July 29, 2011
1:39 AM
comeausj
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For your OD tools, all you have to do it take some scrap and face the end as close as you can get. (You might want to set your tool a smige low to begin to make sure that the relief doesn't rub.) You will have a small piece remaining, measure the thickness with a caliper, then adjust your tool based on this.

 

Why does the height of a boring bar matter? I thought the only reason to have a tool centered is so it doesn't rub or get "sucked under" These don't seem to apply for boring bars, but I really know nothing about boring bars.

July 29, 2011
6:38 AM
Tenn
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Thanks  Alex and yea that is interesting we have the same
tools.Surprised

comeausj,

          The reason for raising the boring bar is because being on the
inside diameter they tend to push down and bind in the hole and either chatter
at best or gouge the work or break at worst. By raising the bit slightly when
it pushes down it gets some relief by taking a smaller cut instead of digging
in to the work piece. The "ideal" situation is to have the bit push
down to dead center when it flexes and that is one of Jerry's points in his
comment on the variables.

On an outside diameter you have the same
effect even though it is on dead center. That of allowing more relief when the
tool bit might flex down.

SmileThanks for asking so we can make that better
understood~Chris 

 

 

 

         The man who will not share his wisdom, however foolish it may seem, For the betterment of his peers and the improvement of his trade, Is not worth his weight in swarf !   Learn from others mistakes, you probably won't live long enough to make them all yourself. But I do think I'm making progress on a lot of them!   ~Chris    
July 29, 2011
7:08 AM
Jerry
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Most machines at our level will flex under a cutting load, follow the components between the workpiece back through the chuck and on to the tool and there will be a number of areas where this flex will manifest itself, and one of the biggest culprits is the shank of the tool itself.

 

It's a sensible policy to ensure that the amount of unsupported tool should be kept to a minimum. This unsupported length is called the 'Overhang'. With a regular RH knife tool the overhang need be no more than is necessary to allow the toolpost to clear the workpiece, so it can be very minimal. For most applications, so long as the cutting edge position is right, the tool needs to overhang by just a little more than the depth of cut. So arguably it might be around 1/4" – 1/2" on a small hobby lathe, but with reality kicking in it's more likely to be the top end of that, if only so that we can see the cutting action without peering over the toolpost too much. With this in mind then the tool is in a good place, the opportunity to be deflected down by the cutting forces is minimal.

 

With a boring bar, depending on the depth of the bore to be machined, we have to have a tool that overhangs much more, so a two inch deep hole would have a tool overhanging by over four times more than our knife tool. As such it's now in a less good place, without that support the boring tool shank can bend downwards under the cutting forces, and it also exerts more force on the toolpost because of the 'lever principle', this puts the cutting edge below centre, resulting in reduced side clearance, a tendency to snatch into the cut with compromised relative cutting angles effecting the shear plane etc. So the idea is that we predict that degree of deflection and 'dial it in' to the tool height, so that when it deflects it comes down to the desired height. So this is why dialling in a precise setting really is academic, as unless the materials, tool, overhang, speed, feed, and depth of cut are always the same, it's just a stake in the ground as a starting point, and for that you'd might as well set the tool on centre, and take a quarter turn on the tool holder height adjuster (or add a shim under a fixed post), or whatever, to act as that starting point, then take it from there by judging the cutting results to improve the cutting action.

 

To minimise the variations:

Always use the largest boring bar that will fit into the pilot hole, and move up to bigger ones when you can.

Use the minimum overhang.

Try and arrange the cutting tip over the saddle by retracting the cross slide

 

OK, so we're now cutting and we are looking to see what can be improved. A machine will always make it apparent that it's not happy. This shows itself as noise, vibration, an excess of current draw, and swarf with properties that can be judged.

 

Noise:

It's a machine, it make noise, but listen to the nature of the noise generated by the cutting action. A happy tool will sound of nothing more than a sort of hiss, high frequency sound with perhaps the odd 'snick' sound as chips separate. An unhappy tool will growl, lower frequency and a detectable rubbing sound.

Add the machine's sound to that, a motor labouring, bearings perhaps groaning, maybe even drive belts adding to the orchestra of audio output.

Vibration:

Probably the easiest to detect, again sound frequency relative, it can vary from lower frequency rasping to high frequency squeals all detectable through the fabric of the machine itself. 

Current draw:

Years ago it was common to fit ammeters to machines, these tend to be found on higher end stuff these days, but it was a way or a machinist to measure the strain being put on the motor. Modern machines may have variable torque which will compensate for any speed reduction under a cut, but this is often still detectable as sound variation between free running and loaded conditions.

Swarf:

A shiny surface on the cut face of the swarf indicates a sharp tool, parallel lines along the length show faults on the cutting edge, but most importantly lines running across the width of the swarf are indicating chatter or vibration. The other side of the swarf is usually matt (flat) in nature, as it consists of the previous cut surface of the material crunched up and separated as a normal part of the cutting action, expect this to be as even as possible.

 

As a side issue, you may often find that when using TC tools they can be at their happiest when taking a full capacity cut, and less so on shallow cuts. This is because TC can not be made as sharp as HSS, and if the depth of cut is not sufficient what is in effect a radius on the cutting edge will want to try and ride over the top of the material, rather than 'getting under' the cut. When they rub like this a poor finish and dimensional variance occurs. This is why it's common to say that it's wise to leave sufficient material for the tool to bite into for a finishing cut when using TC, rather than taking it down to near size and attempting a shave off fine degrees of material. In reality such things as machine rigidity can come into play, as a less rigid machine will be pushed off with a regular reduction cut, but a reduced depth final cut will not push the tool away so much, so can result in the workpiece going undersize for no readily apparent reason.

 

So we are back to practice to gain an understanding of what the nature of these cutting properties are on our given machines, in as many circumstances as we can, do enable us to develop a sense of what might need to be done in the way of machine setup and operation to achieve the desired results.

 

July 29, 2011
7:26 AM
Tenn
Linden, TN USA
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I can honestly say until the other day I have never used the height gauge to set my tools on center. Wink

Below is my usual method.

   

The top two photos show setting the boring bar from the "back" side of a rod. The top of the 6" rule tilting in toward the front of the lathe slightly. 

The rule is pinched Lightly (just enough to keep it from slipping) between the work and the tool bit.

The middle photos show setting up the cut off tool on the front side of the rod same as for a regular cutter bit.

This wants the rule to be square with the lathe. If it tilts in or out it is NOT square or on center. if the top tilts away (towards back of lathe) from the square the bit is too high, if it tilts towards the (front of lathe) square it is too low.

The bottom photo shows a cut with the parting tool…dead on.Cool

Warning: care should be exercised with carbide bits as they will dent your rule and you can break a sharp tip if pinched too tight !! Is that the voice of experience or what?Confused

         The man who will not share his wisdom, however foolish it may seem, For the betterment of his peers and the improvement of his trade, Is not worth his weight in swarf !   Learn from others mistakes, you probably won't live long enough to make them all yourself. But I do think I'm making progress on a lot of them!   ~Chris    
July 29, 2011
7:36 AM
Jerry
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Yeah the trapped rule is a good one.

For others, what Tenn is doing here is to lightly trap a rule between the cutting tool and the workpiece, if an external tool is over height the top of the rule will lean towards the back of the machine, for boring tools use the back side of a test piece and the rule will lean towards you at the top if over height. The opposite in each case if under centre height.

 

I also agree what's said elsewhere, once a basic setting is in place, face off to judge an OD tool's setting, what we call a 'tit' will result if the tool is over or under, and it's a way of ensuring correct tool height when actually cutting.

 

For your interest, set a dial gauge on to a tool and zero it, take a cut and see what happens during the cut.

July 29, 2011
7:42 AM
comeausj
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Tenn,

That's exactly what I was trying to describe. It seems to work pretty well. I definetly have way better cuts now then when I first tryed cutting. That make sense with the boring bars too. Unfortunately I broke one of my boring bars yesterday. (Trying to figure out how to use it) That's alright though, I knew I would probably break some tools when I first started.

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